Curse

Zeru · Jul 13, 2005, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Fear me radius is either your radar screen size or that of your aggro circle. Not quite sure on that as I haven't played one in a long time. Not something like channeling though.

Not sure on your issues with energy denial cause it's freakishly good; basically the target(s) will be able to get their first few spells off without hitch but have no sustainability as they will be kept low the entire battle. ex an ele without ether renewal who is getting hit by debilitating shots every 5-6 seconds or so will not have very much energy at all and won't be able to gain back substantial amounts. He is effectively useless, maybe spamming a conjure+wand at best. Single target energy denial is not too effective when used to keep someone at 0 energy; you're better constantly keeping 2-3 people at <10 energy at max. Monks will be able to squeak off an orison or rof occasionally but most of the time they'll be stuck with sig devo when targeted by energy denial that works. Energy drain is more long term; it's not like interruption where p.blocking that orison right before you pull off a spike will screw that monks ability to help heal for that but it will keep multiple people at very low potential the whole fight.

The mobility point is a very good one, though that applies to anything in the game and is imo a very advanced idea that 90% of the people in this thread don't comprehend at all.

Nexx · Jul 13, 2005, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

I know they're all 100% opinion and when the opinions differ they start flaming :\...

*Use the force MCS!*

*Attempts to close the thread*

Damnit...

*Use the report bad post button MCS*

GG!

I think the thread is starting to take note of some of the short coming of the classes. We shouldn't close it because of a few bad posts. I find it rather interesting to see everyone's analytical responses.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

I said mesmer energy denial sucks compared to the other options. Mesmer shutdown on the other hand is really good.

Echoed Fear me builds that are run properly can achieve 6-7 energy degen in a very wide area. That is insanely effective pretty much because the area is so big. Vs good teams I don't think this is too viable because warriors cunning recharge sucks, rigor mortis is terrible, and good teams realize that wards are extremely good. On the other hand, it is an excellent tombs setup because most people in tombs suck and very rarely do people actually keep wards up and even rarer are all the casters within the WaM. Blind is overrated so badly, it'll stay on for 2 seconds at best, and most teams don't use SoF/EB or Symp visage or Soothing images either. Use the current meta-game to your advantage.

Ranger echo debil builds can sustain themselves indefinitely unless a mes actually brings spirit shackles (I have yet to see this

) and considering they can keep multiple targets (2 minimum 3 generally considering you're taking out 20-30 energy every 5 seconds when the skills are working right) at very low energy consistently they are definitely as worth it as a shutdown mesmer and a load easier to play. Besides, a shutdown mesmer doesn't aim for the kill completely. When enemy monks are forced to use Sig devo for healing due to no energy they don't need to be kept down further.

Dude blind stays on for upwards of 10seconds =_= where did you get your facts?

If it were just 2 seconds nobody would complain about blindness.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calimar

PvP is about TEAMPLAY. Get a warrior, strand it in a group he doesn't know,he's dead. Dead, dead, dead.
A warrior needs support - he, and the monk, are the classes that need the most support. Monks don't deal enough damage unless they're smithing, and then they don't heal, warriors need to GET NEAR. Cripple can be avoided through speed increase - you should plan you characters with some, if you feel you don't get helped by your monks enough.

A secondary profession is a complement to your skills. It should make up for the specialization of your class - your class has weaknesses, you make up for some of them with your secondary class. Casters are strong, but can be shut down by mesmers. Warriors can be crippled. Rangers deal lots of damage but arrows can be deflected. It's all about teamwork - THAT is the clue in GW PvP. As an elementalist/mesmer, I can probably thrash any warrior before he gets to me. OTOH, I've met in the random arena a Warrior/Monk that, after we thrashed his entire squad, proceeded to devastate us one at a time. Don't ask me how, but he was consistently resisting everything we did. 4 on 1 was not enough, he won the game. Wish I had taken screenshots.
Stop whining, check your skillbars.

Right what speed increase can negate cripple? Exactly what is it? Most speed increase is +25% Of course I can take charge as my elite, and have crappy damage output coz I use... CHARGE for my ELITE!!!

C'mon do you play a warrior at all? I'm guessing not

If you can't kill the w/mo your team didn't have the counter vs. his build. And if you couldn't figure out what kept him alive for so long... I have to say you don't have the necessary experience to be posting at all.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Well they gotta do something. Because despite some people's claims that "(caster X) starts to get the ph33r of god in them when they see my (W/X) coming, the good casters in Guild Wars smile and laugh knowing that ONE skill out of their 8 will render said Warrior incapable of putting ph33r into anything.

LOL my sentiment exactly.

All I need is just 1 skill, 1 skill to kill a warriors usefulness. Just one. Other than that I can still throw all the air spike I need and more.

Phades · Jul 13, 2005, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calimar

PvP is about TEAMPLAY. Get a warrior, strand it in a group he doesn't know,he's dead. Dead, dead, dead.
A warrior needs support - he, and the monk, are the classes that need the most support. Monks don't deal enough damage unless they're smithing, and then they don't heal, warriors need to GET NEAR. Cripple can be avoided through speed increase - you should plan you characters with some, if you feel you don't get helped by your monks enough.

A secondary profession is a complement to your skills. It should make up for the specialization of your class - your class has weaknesses, you make up for some of them with your secondary class. Casters are strong, but can be shut down by mesmers. Warriors can be crippled. Rangers deal lots of damage but arrows can be deflected. It's all about teamwork - THAT is the clue in GW PvP. As an elementalist/mesmer, I can probably thrash any warrior before he gets to me. OTOH, I've met in the random arena a Warrior/Monk that, after we thrashed his entire squad, proceeded to devastate us one at a time. Don't ask me how, but he was consistently resisting everything we did. 4 on 1 was not enough, he won the game. Wish I had taken screenshots.
Stop whining, check your skillbars.

So you base your entire opinion on a tanked/healing w/mo in a 4v4 arena while your team had no form of healing, denial, defense, or knockdown? It couldnt be a lack of damage, because you managed to kill the other 3 somehow. If this w/mo was such a "team" oriented player and your entire team couldnt bring him down, then he would have killed you guys off earlier in the round saving his team or ressed his team to speed the process along as you were helpless to do anything against him.

As far as monks fixing conditions of other players, they tend to have the time to do so if they arent being focused upon. It doesnt take much to change targets and cast 1 spell or perform 1 skill of denial versus a wariror and go back to applying the pressure on the monk(s).

As far as synergy choice is concerned, you are implying that only monk is the viable secondary job for a warrior. From a design standpoint that is inherently flawed making all the other job options as secondary redundant and useless. *IF* the base class was balanced properly it could be used with any secondary choice and perform just as well in warrior functions as the w/mo without the need of outside support from the team. Quite frankly the w/? combination seems to be getting the stigma that it "needs" support from other jobs to perfom its basic function. A ele doesnt need a ranger or a necro to cast spells. A monk doesnt need a ranger or warrior in order to heal themselves or smite others. A mesmer doesnt need an ele or a ranger in order to disrupt targets or damage them via direct or indirect methods. A necro doesnt need a mesmer in order for his hexes to stick to a target and so on. However a warrior needs attacks that always hit to penetrate defenses generated from every class, in addition to condition removal, hex removal, and speed augmentation in order to function at a very basic manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

Dude blind stays on for upwards of 10seconds =_= where did you get your facts?

If it were just 2 seconds nobody would complain about blindness.

He is refering to the time to stop what you are doing and remove condition or crtl + click the condition and assumes reaction time of the other team members i guess.

Tellani Artini · Jul 13, 2005, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

LOL my sentiment exactly.

All I need is just 1 skill, 1 skill to kill a warriors usefulness. Just one. Other than that I can still throw all the air spike I need and more.

All it takes is 1 skill to kill an elementalist's usefulness. Just one.

Same for rangers, monks, mesmers, and necros.

Tengoku No Yushosha · Jul 13, 2005, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

All it takes is 1 skill to kill an elementalist's usefulness. Just one.

Same for rangers, monks, mesmers, and necros.

No. There is never only one way to beat a class.

Tellani Artini · Jul 13, 2005, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tengoku No Yushosha

No. There is never only one way to beat a class.

I didn't say there's only one skill. But by the poster's reasoning, one skill can shut down any class. Examples: E-concussion shot, R-spirit shackles, Me-arcane conundrum, W-blinding flash, Mo-backfire, N-skull crack. Notice anything about these? They're all hexes or conditions. That's why it's not true.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Right and you're going to use skull crack, when exactly? LMAO Have you ever tried using it? I have never had anyone successfully use it on me.

If skull crack is warrior's answer vs. caster it's not a very fool proof one.

1) It's hard to hit casters with it.
2) It takes a while to build up 10 adrenaline. Let's see 10 adrenaline 1.33 seconds, So you can hit me once with skull crack ever 13 seconds. LOL. By that time an air ele would be doing like what 750 dmgish to your thick ass. You'd be dead long before you even had the chance to use skull crack.
3) What makes you think you'll get lucky enough to score a hit? My staff has a 20% chance that makes me cast my spells 50% faster. It really breaks the rythm. There's a 20% chance you won't be able to hit my slow casting spell ie. lightning orbs. Not just that it's 2 seocnds, if at that time when I cast lightning orb you're using a different skill, ie, healing signet or etc... you won't catch me with skull crack in time. Axe,sword etc, takes time from between one swing to the next. about 1.33 seconds to be precise.

Consider the alternative that air ele has.

Blind, hits you right away. Once blinded, good bye skull crack.
Slow, hits you right away. Ethereal burden?

"N-skull crack." LMAO. That just shows how little you understand about the game. Good luck hitting a necro with skull crack. That daze is gonna go back to your monk, or your elementalist. And now you've successfully killed your own team mate. LOLZ!!!

No warrior doesn't have a well rounded answer vs. casters.

Skull crack shutting down a necro? Hillarious.

Tellani Artini · Jul 13, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

As I said, it's an example. I could've listed backfire for all the caster classes. And you're right, I've never used skull crack. What a noob I am.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

All it takes is 1 skill to kill an elementalist's usefulness. Just one.

Same for rangers, monks, mesmers, and necros.

You're right...for every other class other then a Warrior.
Show me what skill a Warrior has that will shut down an ele BEFORE the ele shuts him down and renders him useless.

Skull crack IN THEORY is a beautiful thing against all casters -- but doesn't a Warrior actually have to walk up (oh oh, slowness) and connect with it (oh oh, blindness) for it to work? How many of the other classes have either/or?

And the thing is, it's not spamable; so even if you connect with it, so what.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

You're right...for every other class other then a Warrior.
Show me what skill a Warrior has that will shut down an ele BEFORE the ele shuts him down and renders him useless.

Skull crack IN THEORY is a beautiful thing against all casters -- but doesn't a Warrior actually have to walk up (oh oh, slowness) and connect with it (oh oh, blindness) for it to work? How many of the other classes have either/or?

And the thing is, it's not spamable; so even if you connect with it, so what.

Exactly, and all those other skills are NON-elite, but skull crack is an elite. And all those other skills are more effective in countering warrior than skull crack is in countering casters.

May be if skull crack was non elite, with less adrenaline, it can work. Still it doesn't allow a warrior to fight through ward vs. melee (all too common) Still won't allow him to fight vs. a caster's counter against warrior ala. blindness, still won't be enough to kill a necro that just dots you with like -20 degens Which pretty much sets you on a timer to drop dead in oh like 20 seconds? In the meantime he doesn't even have to bother fighting you.

What about rangers? What're warriors counter vs. rangers? Dots, blindness, burns, poison, cripple? What's a warrior to do against all those?

Nexx · Jul 13, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Malchiel, it appears you're probably more qualified to answers these issues than 90% of us here (as you seem to actually play and have a lot of in game experience with a variety of classes) so what's your take on how to resolve the lack of competitive warriors in PvP.

A member (Phades, i think) brought up the issue that the game is inherently flawed due to the difference in how skills interact in PvE and PvP. Do you think different skill sets should be made available depending on whether people are play PvE and PvP?

Or perhaps do you think that the skills are fine and that only minor tweaking is needed?

acidteardrop · Jul 13, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulatto

and acidteardrop I was coming up with how much armor u have left not how much armor it takes down. read the whole thing and u will realize my math is right. its like having yaks bend armor on.

I might have read your post more thoroughly if I could understand your atrocious typing.

Also, your equation was not how much armour you have left. It's how much armour was penetrated. Mine was how much you have left. Therefore, you are, once again, wrong.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexx

Malchiel, it appears you're probably more qualified to answers these issues than 90% of us here (as you seem to actually play and have a lot of in game experience with a variety of classes) so what's your take on how to resolve the lack of competitive warriors in PvP.

A member (Phades, i think) brought up the issue that the game is inherently flawed due to the difference in how skills interact in PvE and PvP. Do you think different skill sets should be made available depending on whether people are play PvE and PvP?

Or perhaps do you think that the skills are fine and that only minor tweaking is needed?

Warriors need MANY skills added to their arsenal. Spamable skills that negate conditions, or get rid of them. It's really that simple. Skills based on their primary attributes (strength, tactics), that last a long time, and have a REAL affect on the battlefield.

And the thing is: by making these skills available you don't overpower the Warrior, because he has to use up skill slots for his own defense.

Simply creating those kinds of skills would open up an endless array of possible new builds for Warriors, and tactics they might employ in PvP.

Think of how TRULY feared (and disruptive) a Knockdown/Aftershock Warrior would be if he had an ability to get to you no matter what you did to him.

Or how about a Sword Wielding Warrior (generally thought of as the most useless), who COULD hit you with Galrath Slash and Final Thrust? You WOULD get REAL worried if you ever saw your health get below 50%.

Or an Axe Warrior that could spam bleed you into a slow conditioned death?

Every class, every weapon, suddenly becomes useful in PvP if you give Warriors primary skills designed to keep them free of conditions.

Acan Vishnu · Jul 13, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

There is perhaps a balance issue on that point, but I would say its definately not game breaking. That is, I think, one of the main reasons for the dual class aspect of this game. If you feel its such a huge downside for you as a warrior, take a secondary that will cover you from it. My friend has a warrior with a necro secondary, the only skill he uses from his necro side is Plague Touch, for 5en with .75sec cast time he not only removes a condition from himself, but forces the other team to deal with it.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acan Vishnu

There is perhaps a balance issue on that point, but I would say its definately not game breaking. That is, I think, one of the main reasons for the dual class aspect of this game. If you feel its such a huge downside for you as a warrior, take a secondary that will cover you from it. My friend has a warrior with a necro secondary, the only skill he uses from his necro side is Plague Touch, for 5en with .75sec cast time he not only removes a condition from himself, but forces the other team to deal with it.

This pretty much makes the point that Warriors aren't balanced. A Warrior HAS to put skill points in his secondary attributes to make himself useful, while everyone else gets to stick to maxed out primary attributes with their skills.

Plague touch that lasts for the mininum amount of time does not compare to a ten second blind associated with someone else's primary attribute.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by nexx

Nexx Malchiel, it appears you're probably more qualified to answers these issues than 90% of us here (as you seem to actually play and have a lot of in game experience with a variety of classes) so what's your take on how to resolve the lack of competitive warriors in PvP.

A member (Phades, i think) brought up the issue that the game is inherently flawed due to the difference in how skills interact in PvE and PvP. Do you think different skill sets should be made available depending on whether people are play PvE and PvP?

Or perhaps do you think that the skills are fine and that only minor tweaking is needed?

I might nexx... but I don't know. Been looking into it, and can't figure it out. May be someone does, but at the moment, I don't think so.

They need some way to negate condition, some way to somehow negate the effectiveness of hexes and stances all of which are used often and easily kill their usefulness.

Acan Vishnu · Jul 13, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

This pretty much makes the point that Warriors aren't balanced. A Warrior HAS to put skill points in his secondary attributes to make himself useful, while everyone else gets to stick to maxed out primary attributes with their skills.

Plague touch that lasts for the mininum amount of time does not compare to a ten second blind associated with someone else's primary attribute.

Plague Touch is unlinked, you need no points in any Necromancer attribute lines. Also, it transfers the condition to your enemy. Its gone from you, unless they can reapply it